What do [men and] women want?

[Talking Bird]

Freud asked it only about women, and he concluded that what they want is to be men. Apparently he already knew what men want, or maybe he didn't care.

I propose a continuation of the discussion, begun elsewhere in IUOMA, of the meaning of nudity in art and erotic art and degrading erotic images, and man's cruelty to man and to woman, and other stuff like that.

[Talking Bird]

The researchers interviewed for the NY Times Magazine article confirmed the findings of my own research, published earlier this month in another discussion thread here at the IUOMA site. But while they used high-tech electronic equipment that I lacked, those researchers neglected the issue of wealth, fame, and power.

In my study, I suggested that women's interest in the fantasy of forceful action by men is related to the general attraction that many or most women feel toward men who wield power through political office, fame/prestige, or money. I said that the powerful man is what women are actually turned on by, and forceful behavior is only needed from men who don't hold power in the community through their status or money. Fortunately, the Daily Mail took up the slack, in an article published last week:

The researchers found several factors influenced the women's enjoyment of sex. However, one of the biggest turned out to be the income of their partner.
'We found that increasing partner income had a highly positive effect on women's self-reported frequency of orgasms,' Dr Pollet said in the journal Evolution and Human Behaviour.

Like the NYTMag's researchers, I pointed out that the forceful action that women need from us loser types is usually just play-acting. That type of play-acting fuels the "submission fantasies" that researcher Marta Meana talked about. But, unlike her, I went on to say that a few of the women I studied seemed to need more than fantasy to get them off.

The NYT researchers largely ignored differences between individuals. They concentrated on generalizations about all women, or the average woman. But there is clearly a wide range of variation as to how forceful and how realistic the aggressive behavior needs to be in order to trigger excitment. The great majority are probably in the bell-shaped part of the curve at the center of the spectrum, but there are some extreme cases at both ends.

That variation is especially relevant to the main topic I've been addressing in both threads, which is degrading erotic images in mail art, or in any publicly displayed art. That topic was originally raised by the woman who started the other thread. She's repulsed by such images and thinks anyone who enjoys them is sick; but another woman said she's excited by some such images. If women, with their far greater understanding of subtlety in interpersonal relations, are mixed up about the issue, think of what it does to men! A man is just trying to figure out "what does this woman want me to do right now so I can get laid?" In desperation he turns to things that have worked for him before, and to things he's seen and heard, which may include erotic art and women's reaction to it.

[Talking Bird]

No surprises there, Chantal. Men know very well that women are turned off by the normal contents of our brains. We keep quiet about that so as to avoid signing the "no-sex license" that you mentioned, and we try to figure out which particular fantasy we're supposed to play along with in any given situation.

And any man who's read singles ads placed by women over 30 has the term "financially secure" etched into his memory. Men aren't shallow like that; we judge women on the intrinsic value of their appearance.

[Talking Bird]

In reply to SA Walker's description of "rape fantasy" (or "fantasies of submission," as Marta Meana called them): That warm seas island/Brad Pitt scenario may work for you and for many other women, but as I said before, some people like it rougher. It may have been too tame for Meredith Kercher, for example.

"Police say Meredith's body was found under a blood-soaked duvet in an upstairs bedroom of the house she lived in with Amanda Knox. Her throat had been cut.
Initially, detectives believed she may have been attacked by a burglar, as the door to her room was locked and one of her windows broken.
But they now suspect the break-in was staged.
They believe that Miss Knox stabbed Miss Kercher while Mr Sollecito held her down and a third man tried to rape her during a sex game that went badly wrong.
That third man is Rudy Guede, who has already been convicted of killing Meredith after a separate trial last year."
--BBC News

It's apparently a famous case, at least in Europe, but I'd never heard of it till this morning, when a story about Amanda Knox's murder trial came with my Yahoo Mail. One assumes, and my interviews confirm, that this is not an isolated case, except in the fact that it went awry.

Similarly with erotic art. One person's excitement may be another's horror. It raises a huge question, which is normally swept under the carpet as everyone takes one side or the other of a pornography vs. free speech debate.

[Celestino Neto]

Modern man in still of the dumb hitorico daily pay

[Talking Bird]

Carla, you misquoted me. I didn't ask "what does a man have to do to get laid if he's not rich and powerful?" I know the answer to that question, and in fact I gave it in detail in previous posts here. What I did say is that the average man's attempts to understand women are usually limited to "what does this woman want me to do right now so I can get laid?" and I only said it to illustrate the well-known fact that men's understanding of "subtlety in interpersonal relations" is less than women's, as I said in the sentence immediately before. Even the hypothetical average man I quoted isn't asking the general question that you attributed to me; he's only trying to figure out what works in a specific case. He probably knows the answer to the general question that you raised.

And I didn't say, as you seem to think, that it's difficult for men who aren't rich and powerful to find women to have sex with. I just said that they have to go about it in a different way, which is that they have to behave aggressively. They generally don't mind doing that, and it's certainly not difficult, except that the level of aggression required varies from one woman to the next, and that's only difficult because of the aforementioned deficiency regarding subtlety in interpersonal relations.

But if a man wants sex, he can figure out what works. Here again, I didn't bring up the subject to help out the Lonely Hearts Club. The only reason I brought it up was to illustrate a point that you either missed or ignored: when a man figures out what works for him to get sex, it may not be something that works for the woman; i.e. it may be more aggression than she wants, it may not be consensual sex. That has bearing on the general topic of abusive images in erotic art, which you said elsewhere you don't want to discuss with me.

[Donald Boyd]

What did Freud want?

[Shivablack]

[nuria metzli]

Scusate, in Italiano...
trasferisco da Silvia Giusti:


Un giorno, il giovane re Artù fu catturato ed imprigionato dal
sovrano di un regno vicino.

Mosso a compassione dalla gioia di vivere del giovane,
piuttosto che ucciderlo, gli offrì la liberta', a patto, però, che rispondesse ad un quesito molto difficile:

"Cosa vogliono veramente le donne?"

Artù avrebbe avuto a disposizione un anno,
trascorso il quale,nel caso in cui non avesse trovato una risposta, sarebbe stato ucciso.

Un quesito simile avrebbe sicuramente lasciato perplesso anche il più
saggio fra gli uomini ed al giovane Artù sembrò una sfida impossibile, tuttavia, avendo come unica alternativa la morte,Artù accettò la proposta, e fece ritorno al suo regno.

Ivi giunto, iniziò a interrogare chiunque:
la principessa, le prostitute, i sacerdoti, i saggi, le damigelle di
corte e via dicendo, ma nessuno seppe dargli una risposta soddisfacente.

Ciò che la maggior parte della gente gli suggeriva era di consultare una vecchia strega, poiché solo lei avrebbe potuto fornire la risposta, ma a caro prezzo, dato che la strega era famosa in tutto il regno, per gli esorbitanti compensi che chiedeva per i suoi consulti.

Il tempo passò... e giunse l'ultimo giorno dell'anno prestabilito,
così che Artù non ebbe altra scelta che andare a parlare con la vecchia strega,
che accettò di rispondere alla domanda, solo al patto di ottenere la
mano di Gawain, il piu nobile dei Cavalieri della Tavola Rotonda, nonchè migliore amico
di Artù!

Il giovane Artù provò orrore a quella prospettiva...
la strega aveva una gobba ad uncino, era orrenda, aveva un solo dente, puzzava di acqua di fogna
e spesso faceva anche dei rumori osceni!

Non aveva mai incontrato una creatura tanto ripugnante.
Percio si rifiutò di accettare di pagare quel prezzo
e condannare,cosi', l'amico a sobbarcarsi un simile fardello!

Gawain,venuto al corrente della proposta, volle parlare ad Artù dicendogli:
che nessun sacrificio era troppo grande per salvare la vita del suo re e la tavola rotonda,
e che quindi avrebbe accettato, di buon grado, di sposare la strega.

Il loro matrimonio fu pertanto proclamato, e la strega finalmente
rispose alla domanda:

"Ciò che una donna vuole veramente :
essere padrona della propria vita".

Tutti concordarono sul fatto che dalla bocca della strega era uscita senz'altro una grande verità e che sicuramente la vita di Artù sarebbe stata risparmiata.

Infatti il sovrano del regno vicino risparmiò la vita ad Artù, e gli garantì piena libertà.

Ma che matrimonio avrebbero avuto Gawain e la strega?

Artù si sentiva lacerato fra sollievo ed angoscia,
mentre Gawain si comportava come sempre, gentile e cortese.

La strega al contrario esibì le sue peggiori maniere...
mangiava con le mani, ruttava e petava, mettendo tutti a disagio

La prima notte di nozze era vicina, e Gawain si preparava a trascorrere una nottata orribile,
ma alla fine prese il coraggio a due mani, ed entrò nella camera da letto,
ma ... che razza di vista lo attendeva!

Dinnanzi a lui, discinta, sul talamo nuziale,
giaceva semplicemente la più bella donna che avesse mai visto!

Gawain rimase allibito, e non appena ritrovò l'uso della parola chiese alla strega cosa le fosse accaduto.

La strega rispose che era stato talmente galante con lei
quando si trovava nella sua forma repellente, che aveva deciso di mostrarglisi nel suo altro aspetto,
e che per la metà del tempo sarebbe rimasta così, mentre per l'altra metà, sarebbe tornata la vecchiaccia orribile di prima.

A questo punto la strega chiese a Gawain quale dei due aspetti avrebbe
voluto che ella assumesse di giorno... e quale di notte.

Che scelta crudele!

Gawain iniziò a pensare all'alternativa che gli si prospettava:
una donna meravigliosa al suo fianco durante il giorno, quando era con i suoi amici, ed una stregaccia orripilante la notte?

O forse la compagnia della stregaccia di giorno
e una fanciulla incantevole di notte, con cui dividere i momenti di intimità?

Il nobile Gawain disse alla strega che avrebbe lasciato a lei la
possibilità di decidere per se stessa.

Sentendo ciò, la strega gli sorrise, e gli annunciò che sarebbe rimasta
bellissima per tutto il tempo, proprio perchè Gawain l'aveva rispettata, e l'aveva lasciata essere
padrona di se stessa!

[Clifford Duffy]

Men and Women want to stand on their heads!

and then they stand sideways! and then they stand in secret loving ways!

[Clifford Duffy]

Men O I thought men want women!

[Clifford Duffy]

im repeating myself. i just woke up from a snow storm. I saw Homer the epic in the swirling flakes!

[Clifford Duffy]

Men O I thought men want women!