Freud asked it only about women, and he concluded that what they want is to be men. Apparently he already knew what men want, or maybe he didn't care.

I propose a continuation of the discussion, begun elsewhere in IUOMA, of the meaning of nudity in art and erotic art and degrading erotic images, and man's cruelty to man and to woman, and other stuff like that.

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That is what it says, I am glad you could get most of the points on.
For women, “being desired is the orgasm,” Meana said somewhat metaphorically – it is, in her vision, at once the thing craved and the spark of craving.

Hunger for Me by Alta Gerrey
hunger for me hunger hunger for me
hunger i am right here you
can touch me if you reach you
can kiss my opening lips you
can feel my waters burst hunger
for me hunger hunger for me
you will never forget me your
dreams will remind you ignore me
& your dreams will cause you to
cry out my name i will visit you
as you have visited me i will
cause you to
while some people keep the food to themselves
This is an interesting discussion but I miss reference to Darwin who was... probably... a lot closer to the truth of sexual attraction than Freud ever was. I have been reading a lot of Dawkins lately and his insight, being based on a deep appreciation of Darwin, has this subject coldly laid out on the marble slab... nothing like marble for surpressing passion!
The researchers interviewed for the NY Times Magazine article confirmed the findings of my own research, published earlier this month in another discussion thread here at the IUOMA site. But while they used high-tech electronic equipment that I lacked, those researchers neglected the issue of wealth, fame, and power.

In my study, I suggested that women's interest in the fantasy of forceful action by men is related to the general attraction that many or most women feel toward men who wield power through political office, fame/prestige, or money. I said that the powerful man is what women are actually turned on by, and forceful behavior is only needed from men who don't hold power in the community through their status or money. Fortunately, the Daily Mail took up the slack, in an article published last week:

The researchers found several factors influenced the women's enjoyment of sex. However, one of the biggest turned out to be the income of their partner.
'We found that increasing partner income had a highly positive effect on women's self-reported frequency of orgasms,' Dr Pollet said in the journal Evolution and Human Behaviour.

Like the NYTMag's researchers, I pointed out that the forceful action that women need from us loser types is usually just play-acting. That type of play-acting fuels the "submission fantasies" that researcher Marta Meana talked about. But, unlike her, I went on to say that a few of the women I studied seemed to need more than fantasy to get them off.

The NYT researchers largely ignored differences between individuals. They concentrated on generalizations about all women, or the average woman. But there is clearly a wide range of variation as to how forceful and how realistic the aggressive behavior needs to be in order to trigger excitment. The great majority are probably in the bell-shaped part of the curve at the center of the spectrum, but there are some extreme cases at both ends.

That variation is especially relevant to the main topic I've been addressing in both threads, which is degrading erotic images in mail art, or in any publicly displayed art. That topic was originally raised by the woman who started the other thread. She's repulsed by such images and thinks anyone who enjoys them is sick; but another woman said she's excited by some such images. If women, with their far greater understanding of subtlety in interpersonal relations, are mixed up about the issue, think of what it does to men! A man is just trying to figure out "what does this woman want me to do right now so I can get laid?" In desperation he turns to things that have worked for him before, and to things he's seen and heard, which may include erotic art and women's reaction to it.
about 20 years ago, when we were in our mid-twenties, this guy said to a bunch of us, post-feminism, independant (financially and all ) girlz..."women don't believe in love... they believe in proofs of love "...oh my god, this guy signed his no-sex license right there and then...

20 years later... i think he had a point...

to this day, i hear women in their 30's saying they want men with good jobs, who pay for the 1st date and 2nd and 3rd, who GIVE them gifts... the feeling of love seem not to exist unless it is EXPRESSED in a socially-convenient way...

So maybe this guy had a point...if the man doesn't come up with the proof he likes the woman, then he doesn't...

Fortunately, i don't fall in that category, i always fall for the poor artist type and so it goes !
No surprises there, Chantal. Men know very well that women are turned off by the normal contents of our brains. We keep quiet about that so as to avoid signing the "no-sex license" that you mentioned, and we try to figure out which particular fantasy we're supposed to play along with in any given situation.

And any man who's read singles ads placed by women over 30 has the term "financially secure" etched into his memory. Men aren't shallow like that; we judge women on the intrinsic value of their appearance.
for my part, i consciously try to stay away from these stereotypical messages that we are bombarded with. i think they are made to divide and not unite. i still believe in honesty, consideration, harmony and a big bag of sense of humour is what most people want... and peace at home.
In reply to SA Walker's description of "rape fantasy" (or "fantasies of submission," as Marta Meana called them): That warm seas island/Brad Pitt scenario may work for you and for many other women, but as I said before, some people like it rougher. It may have been too tame for Meredith Kercher, for example.

"Police say Meredith's body was found under a blood-soaked duvet in an upstairs bedroom of the house she lived in with Amanda Knox. Her throat had been cut.
Initially, detectives believed she may have been attacked by a burglar, as the door to her room was locked and one of her windows broken.
But they now suspect the break-in was staged.
They believe that Miss Knox stabbed Miss Kercher while Mr Sollecito held her down and a third man tried to rape her during a sex game that went badly wrong.
That third man is Rudy Guede, who has already been convicted of killing Meredith after a separate trial last year."

--BBC News

It's apparently a famous case, at least in Europe, but I'd never heard of it till this morning, when a story about Amanda Knox's murder trial came with my Yahoo Mail. One assumes, and my interviews confirm, that this is not an isolated case, except in the fact that it went awry.

Similarly with erotic art. One person's excitement may be another's horror. It raises a huge question, which is normally swept under the carpet as everyone takes one side or the other of a pornography vs. free speech debate.
Modern man in still of the dumb hitorico daily pay
Carla, you misquoted me. I didn't ask "what does a man have to do to get laid if he's not rich and powerful?" I know the answer to that question, and in fact I gave it in detail in previous posts here. What I did say is that the average man's attempts to understand women are usually limited to "what does this woman want me to do right now so I can get laid?" and I only said it to illustrate the well-known fact that men's understanding of "subtlety in interpersonal relations" is less than women's, as I said in the sentence immediately before. Even the hypothetical average man I quoted isn't asking the general question that you attributed to me; he's only trying to figure out what works in a specific case. He probably knows the answer to the general question that you raised.

And I didn't say, as you seem to think, that it's difficult for men who aren't rich and powerful to find women to have sex with. I just said that they have to go about it in a different way, which is that they have to behave aggressively. They generally don't mind doing that, and it's certainly not difficult, except that the level of aggression required varies from one woman to the next, and that's only difficult because of the aforementioned deficiency regarding subtlety in interpersonal relations.

But if a man wants sex, he can figure out what works. Here again, I didn't bring up the subject to help out the Lonely Hearts Club. The only reason I brought it up was to illustrate a point that you either missed or ignored: when a man figures out what works for him to get sex, it may not be something that works for the woman; i.e. it may be more aggression than she wants, it may not be consensual sex. That has bearing on the general topic of abusive images in erotic art, which you said elsewhere you don't want to discuss with me.
What did Freud want?




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