Freud asked it only about women, and he concluded that what they want is to be men. Apparently he already knew what men want, or maybe he didn't care.

I propose a continuation of the discussion, begun elsewhere in IUOMA, of the meaning of nudity in art and erotic art and degrading erotic images, and man's cruelty to man and to woman, and other stuff like that.

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Yes, certainly a look of pleasure can be mistaken for a look of pain. Maybe that's why some people are opposed to showing sexual images -- because the confusion between the two may give the wrong impression, especially to children.

When I was a child, I thought my father was a monster who sometimes took my mother downstairs to beat her. The fact that he put a gentle hand on her and urged her toward the basement door, as they were both telling my sisters and me to get back upstairs and get in bed, just made it more disturbing. Twenty years later, one of my sisters told me she hated my father, and wanted nothing to do with him and just wished he would die. When I asked why, she said it was because of those beatings. She reminded me of how we used to sit on the staircase in terror, listening to our mother's screams and moans, wishing we were strong enough to defend her against the brute. I had to remind my sister that in our tiny, crowded house there was always one of us children sleeping in the same room with our parents, and also remind her of the mattress that was always stored in the basement but never used, and ask whether she, having by then married and given birth to two children, could think of any other explanation for what we heard.

César, it sounds like you're saying that as long as you have good intentions, anything you do is morally correct. The fact that you hate violence, sadism, and masochism makes it perfectly acceptable for you to exhibit an image which people will think is a depiction and celebration of violence, sadism, or masochism. Have I understood you correctly?
From a moral point of view, nakedness, sex, porno, are wrong. Moral people, conservative, would rather not take a look at that. When I'm watching videos and the engine takes me to an homosexual (gay) scene, I close my eyes and shut that site, eventhough I'm liberal I feel terrible to be watching that. Then a realize that some people is gay born and they too have the right to have sex between them and to do some porno privatly. Those who want a conservative escenario have the support of law and XXX is still illegal in Mexico but available in some way. But XXX is a strong motivation not only for jerks, married man and woman enjoy that activity without losing sanity and becoming rapers. Opposing of course is a respectable position. People with strong moral values may say we don't want that in our lives. Not only sex. Some people may say we don't want love or affection in our lives, cause they are against the patterns of behaviour, and against our concept of work, and from that point of view, war is fine, violence is cool, peace & love is bullshit. Is that respectable? Ask a soldier, ask a policeman, ask a politician.

Today appeared in the newspaper that people who kisses eachother in the streets of Guanajuato are going to jail: "Con el objetivo de preservar el espacio público como un lugar de convivencia y civismo, la autoridad municipal mandará a prisión a las parejas que se besen con intensidad en lugares públicos", El Siglo de Torreón.

I understand the image I show as a protest against social conditioning who is guilty of the making of couples without considering their will. The picture has the title "Skinner". Last year I appeared in public as a musician. The organizers of the event introduced me to a woman. I didn't like her too much because of her look, and I could not hide that. I didn't talk to her, I felt rather unconfortable by her side. They allowed me to play the sinthesyzer for about 15 minutes and they threw me out. I imagine I don't have a place among them and I don't expect to be invited to play again, and they work for art and culture protecting and promoting art as a gouvernamental activity. But I can't imagine myself pretending a woman I don't like who would make me feel terrible for the rest of my days. Now I understand better the work they really do, the dark side of the moon. And that picture is my protest. Beauty is hard to reject. Why didn't they offer someone beautiful? `Cause they don't want the best for me, 'cause they don't want something good for me. For that reason I consider them a bunch of bastards who call "work" the activity they do.
César, who are those people you spoke of, who say "we don't want love or affection in our lives" but believe that "war is fine, violence is cool, peace & love is bullshit"? It's not the soldier, policeman, and politician that you mentioned right after that. They may agree about war, but most of them want a lot of love and affection. Monks don't have sex, but they're full of love and they share affection very strongly in other ways, and they're totally opposed to war.

Did you answer my first question, about whether you believe your good intentions justify any action no matter how bad the effect? I thought that maybe in your last paragraph you were answering it by saying that you don't care whether something that you do is right or wrong; that you care only about people doing wrong to you, cheating you, and your revenge against them when they do that. They paid you for playing music by giving you a girl, but you believe they cheated you by giving you a girl who wasn't attractive enough, and by not letting you play long enough; and so you protested that by creating the picture that looks like a woman in pain. Is that what you meant?
I think we have to be in control not only of our actions (non violent behaviour) but also of the bad effects relating to our non violent behaviour. The thing is that only for this time I consider "Skinner" a good work and a good concept. If you want an apologyse, well I'm very sorry. Please forgive me, but only for this time I'm appealing to my freedom of artistic expression.

Good intentions never justify bad effects. And I have to be more careful in the future. If it happens again please let me know.
César, I don't know what you would apologize for, so of course I'm not asking for that. The problem is that I don't know what you're saying. I've been asking questions to try to understand it. From the little bit that I understand, it sounds interesting, different from anything I've heard before, but I don't understand most of it. I think you might be referring to some fixed ideas that I'm not familiar with.

What did you mean about being more careful in the future? Was there something you weren't careful about before? If so, what was it? Just before that, you said that good intentions don't justify bad effects. I misunderstood how you felt about that -- in your first post, I thought you were saying the opposite, but apparently I was wrong. Do you mean that you have to be more careful about giving a wrong impression of your opinion on subjects like that?

Also, I don't know what "Skinner" means, and I don't know what you mean when you say you're appealing to your freedom of artistic expression. Usually I see that phrase used in connection with censorship. You said something before about "XXX" being illegal, which sounds like censorship, but I don't know what XXX means. Is it something you want to use in your art but aren't allowed to? Is that what you meant by appealing to freedom of artistic expression?
Spiritual people exists. Ask a catholic priest or a Jehova witness about love and killing and they will respond: religion says you'll never kill another human. And about love, you'll have to love each other. Of course a politician or a policeman may want love and affection when they get home, but the rest of the time they have to obbey the patterns of work. And the patterns of work are behind the survival of the fittest. US is the strongest? They have to prove that fighting, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf, Irak, Afghanistan. When people say "we don't want that law of the jungle, we want a rational world, a structure based on thought and not in strenght", the patterns of work change. Otherwise they have to sustain that structure being like the Charles Dickens character at the beginning of the tale, Scrooge.
Cosmopolitan or Continental !
I've never heard of it either, but there are cosmopolitan breakfast cushions. So, maybe.
Yes, Gail, that's the real question here; the one that inspired this discussion thread. What's the difference between erotic art and pornography? My impression is that people use the former to describe pictures of women that excite them, and the latter to describe pictures of women that repulse them. And opinions vary.

César posted a picture, above, which I think he's saying looks like pornography to some people, and which he thinks of as erotic art. My first impression was that it was a woman during childbirth, and I still have trouble seeing it as erotica or porn. Anyone else?
I had this picture taken during intercourse. It seemed to me the image of a girl being raped. There was a mailart call against the gender violence and I made this collage blaming the social conditioning for rape. That was the intention. The results may be different. Some of our questions like what is Skinner? of what is XXX? can be answered by the google search cause they are general knowledge. I have an artiststamp in the refrigerator and I go back to that. Salut!
Then it's not complicated. I understood you correctly the first time. You expected people to think the photo was a rape scene, and you presented it as a protest against the thing that it's actually an example of. You're against rape, and you're against images of rape because they are a social conditioning for rape, but only when other people create them. When you create them it's a protest, so it's o.k.
"you're against images of rape because they are a social conditioning for rape"

I'm against non consensual sex and society or goverment forming couples without considering people's will, ignoring friendship and love that lead us to make voluntary couples.

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